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Jordan Wolfson & Diva Corp Conversation
Published in On the Rag Vol. II - June 2026
Magazine available here
[START OF CONVERSATION]
Diva Corp: Hey Jordan. It's January 1st. Happy New Year. The world is full of possibilities. How'd you ring in 2026?
Jordan Wolfson: I went up to Mendocino with my three dogs and girlfriend. We just stayed in. It was raining. You?
Diva: I like to go up to Mulholland and watch the fireworks down below. There's a spot where you can see both sides of the city at once. It was raining, though, like you said. Then the rain stopped and it was clear for a minute. All the fireworks went off at once.
And then I thought about Churchill. Apparently he’d go out on his roof every night during the Blitz and watch the bombs fall on London. He thought it was beautiful, I think because he knew he'd turn it around. Like it was setting up for an even better narrative climb.
Which then made me think about setbacks. Is there such a thing? Or is it all just momentum? Do you think about this stuff? Do you ever feel like Churchill during the Blitz?
Wolfson: I never use the word “setbacks.” It’s never in my head. I do get delays and challenges, though, and a lot of deals for production of artworks fall through.
I don’t think of “bad luck” either.
But I’ve definitely had a lot of challenging times that forced me to pivot and change my course. It’s never-ending. I think that all my partners have this, too, so when something comes up we just discuss it as the new reality and make an alternative plan.
Do you want me to get specific?
Diva: Yes, we need to know about the challenging times.
Wolfson: Covid delayed and setback Body Sculpture. It was a very stressful period. It forced me to reconfigure my professional alignment with my commercial galleries and skip several personal engagements, like the last family trip my mom attended the summer before she passed away.
Diva: How'd you deal with that? How'd you get clear in the studio with the stress? I feel like I've seen you post a photo of a Jung quote on IG...
Wolfson: I meditated a lot. I’ve been doing it since I was 29. I just surrendered to it. There wasn’t a point to resisting and I was in service to the work, not my personal comfort.
Diva: Is there ever a time when you're not in service to the work?
Wolfson: When I’m not working… like relaxing.
My studio is very 10-6 pm. At 6, we all walk out and I usually don’t work late unless I’m on a deadline and it’s critical.
Diva: Yes but I wonder if the motor stays running, you know? Maybe it quiets down.
For example, in your talk at ArtCenter [in December], you went over your early career. A lot of that was very successful work and laid a foundation for what was to come. Yet for every work, you pointed out how things were "made in fear." This type of thinking extends beyond studio time, I'd imagine...
Wolfson: I shut off at night, but, if I’m on deadline and approaching a show, my mind feels always on. I compulsively take notes – mostly in the form of selfie video or voice memos or notepad on my phone, all of which I later transcribe. For example, a lot (if not all) of the dialogue in my sculptures and video works was written late at night or during moments I wasn’t in the studio.
The fear thing was something I was going through in my 20s and early 30s. I still have it, but not in the same way.
Diva: Yes, that's what I was curious about. Maybe you don't think about this, but I wonder if one day you'll see, say, Colored Sculpture or Female Figure in the same way? How are you sure that those early works were treading in fear, and these weren't?
Wolfson: Because my experience in making them was smooth and bright high-frequency. I held back nothing. I wasn’t isolated in doubt and fear and insecurities.
It was all intuition and nothing else. No rationale for any decisions except for feeling.
Diva: One thing you didn't seem to hold back in the early works was the aggressive crop. In one video, you cropped at the neck, leaving the head out of frame entirely... maybe there were two like this... and in another you removed the audio track in favor of sign language. Even the edit in Favorite Things put an emphasis on the cut. More recently of course you have something like Body Sculpture where the head is removed, and other works remove senses -- Little Room swaps the participant's body for another.
Where does this come from?
Wolfson: You’re right, I love the aggressive crop. I love it in music and cinema and literature and sculpture. All of it.
I just always liked a kind of indifference that’s structural. I think it’s like using a delete or erase tool without the fade, and it makes an implication in form that binds the artwork.
I can name some of my favorite crops by other artists if you like?
Diva: Yes, we need to know your favorite crops.
Wolfson: Barry Lyndon freeze frame at the end.
End of Scenes from a Marriage.
Last line of Old Man and the Sea.
There are more. I’ll work on this but need to do later.
Ask me another question?
Diva: Love Barry Lyndon... You know, I'm also thinking right now of filmmakers like Bela Tarr who died today may God rest his soul or, like, Tarkovsky, and for them the frame is important, but it's open. For you, it’s closed, not thematically or artistically, but in a purely cinematic sense the entire story is right there, in frame. Do you think of your work in these terms ever? To me it's a style thing... do you ever try to evade elements of your own style?
Wolfson: I’m not sure it’s intentional…
I don’t like tricks and I don’t like to hide things in terms of illusions, but I also very much don’t think or function on narrative. That’s why I never had ambitions to make a feature like so many other artists do. You’re right: I’m interested in the total experience, and that’s probably why even when I was doing video I considered it sculptural or structural, even if it wasn’t on a short loop, like Bruce Nauman’s Clown Torture. It’s always been about feeling my body in front of the work, in the most direct, practical way.
Diva: To what degree does the total experience of your art extend to persona? Maybe it's not something you think about -- though I'd argue it must be -- but how do you think your public perception affects the delivery of your work?
Wolfson: I don’t think about it. If I did, I’d be paranoid.
For me it’s simple, I make what I think is good art or does things good art does. The art I like does certain things that aren’t virtue signaling or decorative or entertainment… It’s about feeling and witnessing, and how that lingers when you walk away. I don’t have interests and I’m not nostalgic. This isn’t about taking a hobby and professionalizing it.
Diva: There is paranoia in the work! Sometimes it circles around harm, too, or addresses it directly, like Real Violence. I'm working on a piece right now responding to the question of 'what is radical' -- sometimes I think the fear of doing harm can limit radicality. Do you think I'm heading in the right direction? What are your thoughts?
Wolfson: It depends. I think the fear of harming oneself is more profound than that of harming others in making art.
I don’t believe good art can harm the viewer. I agree viewers can be harmed, but that may be because they bring all their past with them when they look at art. Same as the artist who brings their past when making it.
So, I think you shouldn’t write from the perspective of guilt or fear, but the absurdity that one is afraid of saying things in context and the viewer not being sophisticated enough to get it. The person who does this is committing a selfish act and doubting the sophistication of the viewer.
Diva: So, like, "it's absurd to fear doing harm as an artist."
Wolfson: Yes. It’s like putting a mirror in jail for reflecting a crime.
Diva: Is it absurd to fear not doing harm as an artist?
Wolfson: It’s only not absurd “to fear” harming another person. What we do in our art is fiction.
It’s absurd to even talk about art like this. What happened why are we doing this?
Diva: I was just curious where you'd go with it.
Wolfson: I mean how did we get here culturally to talk like this about art…
Diva: I think there's a benefit to talking about it because it's inevitable that other people will. How we got here, I don't know... Maybe something to do with academia, conceptual art, describing the thing instead of feeling it... You probably have a better sense of it all.
Wolfson: I don’t know that much about you. Are you an artist?
Diva: I guess if having a show makes you an artist, we are about to be an artist.
Our first show is coming up. Any advice?
Wolfson: Just do what you like.
Who’s “we”? I’m still confused.
Diva: Diva Corp.
Wolfson: Ok I’ll stop there.
What else do you want to know about me and my art?
Diva: Well I have endless questions. I'm very curious and never get exhausted.
I won't overstep though, I just have a couple left... Besides, I have no idea if you're enjoying yourself. Are you? That's a formal hurdle to this [email] conversation style, I guess. It spans time, which is interesting – almost like an interview conducted in slow-motion – but it removes all the human cues. Like an aggressive crop.
Wolfson: Yes, I’m into this. Keep going…
Diva: I saw your piece in the Horror show at Sprüth. It's funny and erotic and sincere. Your wallworks often have some Ashley Bickerton in them, which you don't shy away from (I think you wrote the text for one of his recent shows), but for some reason people don't ask you about him much in interviews. Can you talk about Ashley, that influence, his work as it relates to yours?
Wolfson: Ashley was a dear friend. I was his last good friend. We talked all the time and I’m still close with his family.
I remember seeing his early work in my late twenties and thinking it would be cool to develop them, but as me, not him. It sort of started that way. The more I work, though, the more I’ve felt connected to his work. There was this sexy abrasiveness to his logos – or the use of logos – that felt fast and mean. His works were much more personal and vulnerable than mine. He called his “self-portraits.” For me, what stuck out wasn’t the vulnerability, but the sexuality in the material combinations.
He told me when we first met: of all the artists who ripped him off, I was his favorite.
He was the most innocent person I’ve known. If you want, I can send you our last picture together. It’s from a FaceTime call.
Diva: That makes sense. Now I'm thinking of the ones from a couple years ago; you had a few in different booths at Basel. Maybe one had a car accident, some praying hands with gloves, and then of course the screws and plexi. Definitely charged.
Yes, sure, please send, would love to see the photo.
Wolfson: Yes those works were at Basel…
Diva: What do you mean he was innocent?
Wolfson: He was like a child, and I think “innocent” even more because he wasn’t tough and I felt he had difficulty being resilient. A lot of artists and creatives are very sensitive and can be thrown off track when they feel attacked and misunderstood. You need to learn to get up again and again until it’s just part of the story and not a story.
I remember once I felt very hurt and I called Jeff Koons and we spoke for over an hour. He told me that he recovered quickly from negativity, that it was his superpower and he benefited from it his whole career.
Knowing Ashley, I felt like that was harder for him and he needed more protection. That’s the sense I got for the reason he moved so far away to Bali.
Diva: What was the situation you called Jeff about?
Wolfson: Just someone being mean. I don’t like to give it energy.
Diva: Do you think you're less innocent than when you started? What role does innocence play in your work?
Wolfson: I’m more innocent now because I know what’s important and what’s not.
I don’t see there being any roles in my work because it’s so intuitive, but I do always feel like a beginner – confused and stumped.
I like to think that every time I walk into my studio, I’m new. That’s why I like LA. It’s new. The sun makes me new. There’s never a plan other than to work most of the time.
Diva: Another side to your work, I imagine, would be considered CEO-like to some people. Pitching, securing the funds for these ambitious projects. Communicating the vision. Delegating. Things that might not be rewarded by innocence, or even intuition.
Can you talk about that? How are you so effective at realizing these ideas logistically, financially? Are you a convincing person?
Wolfson: Back in 2018, I invited Jeffrey Deitch over to help me brainstorm about raising money for Body Sculpture. I asked him over specifically because he presold Jeff Koons’ works when Jeff was developing the Celebration series.
I showed Jeffrey the idea for Body Sculpture using some previs animations and still imagery, and I explained the idea. I asked him how to pitch it. He said my enthusiasm would carry over most effectively and suggested I make a short pitch video. That’s how it started.
My dealers then collectively shared the film to several museums and collectors. Sadie Coles finally made the sale to the National Gallery of Australia.
I did the same for Little Room and my new work I’m about to start in February.
Diva: You remind me of Tom Cruise a little bit. Say what you want about him, but he believes in movies, he has a vision, he makes it happen.
Wolfson: I get it. Tom Cruise has willed a lot into existence. It’s different though because he’s an actor, he has less control or power over what he can do.
Diva: Yes, though I think he’s active in production, too. I don’t know him, so I can’t say for sure. But it does seem like he has incredibly high standards, or maybe it’s ambition. Do you think art is ambitious enough right now?
Wolfson: Yes, there is always great ambitious art!
Diva: What about your upcoming project? The one you're starting in Feb -- what can you tell us about it? What can we expect?
Wolfson: I don’t want to talk about it on the record but its in line with the previous large animatronic sculptures.
… Ask another question?
Diva: Sorry I was watching Afternoons of Solitude. Have you seen it?
Wolfson: I haven’t. My friend I’m with right now says it’s crazy.
Diva: It's very serious and straightforward and naked. But also archetypal to the point of parody. It's my favorite art piece from last year, I think.
Wolfson: I don’t think I have a favorite work from the last year.
Diva: Why not?
Wolfson: I don’t know. I haven’t thought of it until now.
… Wait I do…
Diva: What is it?
Wolfson: Saint John the Baptist (Leonardo) – Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_John_the_Baptist_(Leonardo)
Diva: You sent a link to Leonardo da Vinci's Saint John the Baptist. This was your favorite work of the year? It’s a delirious painting, that smile…
Wolfson: It’s a mysterious work. Maybe one of the finest artworks ever made. I remember being frozen by it. It’s very strange. It gave me an amazing feeling.
I feel artworks are containers of imprinted consciousness. And the quality of the work is relative to the purity and level of frequency from which the consciousness has been applied to the material.
Diva: The first painting I was struck by was a Dali painting, The Metamorphosis of Narcissus. I spent hours with it. I started laughing in front of it after a while, I don’t know why, maybe discomfort. I knew nothing about art at the time; I don’t know if I’d even like it if I saw it again. Maybe this was a pure thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphosis_of_Narcissus
Wolfson: I’ve never seen that one before, but I’m not versed in Dali.
I do like it.
Diva: You seem optimistic about art.
Wolfson: I love art.
Diva: You know, I was looking at that Leonardo painting again this morning and it actually reminded me a lot of your piece Animation, masks. The eeriness, especially in the void. It’s even sort of lit the same way.
Wolfson: It’s a sin to compare my work to one of the finest artworks ever made. I never thought of that. I wish we could stand in front of it together. You’d be surprised. It’s a modestly-sized painting… it’s mysterious, much more than Animation, masks.
Diva: Hhaha yes, I understand. I am, I think, seeing similarities in their framing, lighting, and direct communication with the viewer.
You don't like Animation, masks?
Wolfson: No, I like it. But it’s not a fair comparison. For him, not me.
When I saw it, I didn’t think of my work. I was struck by the strangeness of it. It’s the same with many masterpieces. For example Michelangelo or Caravaggio… there’s a strange secular quality in the work that hides in plain sight behind the religious narratives. Do you ever get that sense? Where the artist is doing their work behind the requirements of church and the religious overtones are almost a caricature.
Diva: You think? I always was under the impression that the Sistine Chapel couldn't happen without true belief. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
Wolfson: I think it’s half-secular if not entirely. It’s very much real art and I feel that’s why.
Diva: Do you think there are equivalents today?
Wolfson: Do you mean of artists at that level?
Diva: A situation where an artist works within a system, for a system even, yet the output is 'secular,' if you will, vis-a-vis that system. Like you said. And then, of course, it has to be done well, which is another thing.
My mind goes to Robocop first, but that's not right. Too much of a Trojan horse. And then stuff that Merlin Carpenter does isn't it, either, because it's done to counter the system explicitly. Sincerity is needed.
But if we take the market as art's religion, and the gallery as its church...
… Oh, I’ve got it I think—
Wolfson: I don’t totally understand what you mean… By default, now, everything is secular. By today’s standard, work that’s secular is not based in morality, i.e. the “edgelord” is now secular and godless.
… That’s funny to think about that woke and/or political work is now the un-secular.
Do you believe in faith? Do you have faith in your life?
Diva: I believe in momentum. And I pick up momentum every time I do something scary and realize it doesn't hurt. Something like that. Inertia is my God.
You?
Wolfson: I love that. Wow. That’s such a good analogy for god.
There’s a magnet in my heart that guides me to do right by others and my work.
Diva: That's cool. It reminds me of what you were saying about Ashley.
Could be a good place to put our swords down, too.
Wolfson: No let’s keep going
Diva: It's extending into podcast territory, we'd need to hire actors to perform it.
It would be like My Dinner with Andre, except with Jordan Wolfson and Diva Corp.
Wolfson: I know you can muster one more question. You’re smart.
I hate when interviews have soft, poetic landings. Remember, I like the harsh crop.
Diva: It’ll be sad when it does happen because for a couple days we were like pen pals.
Wolfson: I know how to end it. With a monologue.
May I?
Diva: I had a question about beauty and destruction. Which you've probably answered a million times.
I'd love to hear the monologue.
Wolfson: Black.
[END OF CONVERSATION]
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